I’ll write later about the vacation i just took, but i’d like to first talk about what i have perceived to be a very cold “welcome back to Iowa.” I was feeling quite proud of my state when gay marriage became legalized a few months back, but today i feel pretty ashamed of this place. How backward are we that we have to silence a certain group’s point of view even when it doesn’t threaten another’s?
The Des Moines Register reported yesterday that some signs which had been commissioned by the Iowa Atheists & Freethinkers to appear on local DART buses were taken down on Tuesday after being up for only three days because so many people were calling DART to complain about them. The signs simply read, “Don’t believe in God? You are not alone.”
I want someone to tell me how that message is offensive in any way. It’s as if believers are tortured by the mere notion that non-believers exist and might have the HUMAN emotion of loneliness, or the desire to identify with other people who feel the same way. Do you just want to think of us as inhuman or deny our existence altogether? Because that’s the only explanation i can fathom for someone wanting these signs to be taken down.
I see the “-God” billboards all the time. I see the “Babies are a gift from God!” signs all over the place. There are church marquees and hand-made “Jesus Loves You!” signs by the Iowa roadsides and bible verses on my shopping bags and cross necklaces on everyone and “In God We Trust” on my money, but i don’t have the audacity to demand that it all be removed from my sight. It’s obvious that i’m a member of a minority, and i think it’s sad that atheists can’t even reach out to one another and talk amongst ourselves because believers see that sort of public communication as an attempt to convert EVERYONE to our way of thinking. As if believers weren’t trying to do just that!
Look, i would love to be able to express the way i see things clearly enough to open someone’s eyes to it, but that is something i don’t really attempt because i feel it’s beyond my reach. Atheists aren’t trying to convert people, we are merely standing up to be counted, mainly to feel a little less alienated and alone. We just want to know that other people like us exist and let them know that they are accepted, if only by the others like us. Some groups in other states have attempted to also let the general public know that “atheist” does not necessarily mean “immoral person” (see photo above), and their efforts have been met with an identical outpouring of fear and blindness. It’s not an anti-Christian or anti-God or anti-anything message. It’s just a statement! “You don’t have to believe in God to be a good person” – how is that threatening?? Most people don’t even believe it, so why can’t they just laugh it off and go about their charmed, eternal lives?
Thursday, August 6th, 2009 12:10 pm • des moines, religion
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August 6th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
*applause*
*still going*
*standing ovation*
When you tweeted about the signs being taken down I stomach sank. I guess it was more my heart but I felt it in my gut.
It’s insane how believers view Atheists. We are merely animals or less to them. The social stigma that is attached to the word Atheist is so sad because it is holding us back. You mentioned that we are a minority, but that is not entirely true. You would be surprised by the results of some surveys about religious views. Atheists and agnostics hold a pretty decent percentage of the general population and a STAGGERING percentage of intellectuals.
You should (If you haven’t already) watch the TED talk by Richard Dawkins. His words and views on Atheism are very encouraging and motivating for closet Atheists. Link below.
Militant Atheism
@BCassidyDesign
August 6th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
How DARE you promote free thinking!!!
lol
I like the pic you put up. God message…. Oops, I meant “good”!
August 6th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
People just need to call in an complain about the God signs. I wonder if enough people call DART and say they will boycott the buses due to the sign removal then would they put them back up?
August 6th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
I work at a coffee shop where my boss is a pastor and he tries not to even consider a person’s resume unless they have a reference to a pastor or some other religious figure. He only hired me because he was desperate. I deal with this kind of crap every day. These coworkers of mine try to surround themselves by other Christians because they are terrified that they may begin to believe another point of view. They can’t even LISTEN to what you’ve got to say because they know how easily their arguments can be broken down. It is extremely frustrating.
Today I pointed out to one of my coworkers (who is not religious) that she is more moral than the Christian girl who used to work here because she always pays for every scone and every drink she takes. Even the Christian girl would take bakery items and several drinks without paying for them. Oh, and not process her tips for the government!!
August 6th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
I want to first say that I do not agree with the removal of the signs from the DART buses. A lot of small-minded people called in and complained, and DART caved to their clientele. I don’t think it’s right for Atheism to be treated as if it is obscene or offensive.
I am a Christian. I am very private about my religion. I do not try to convert or convince anyone into my way of thinking. I would say a good 50% of my closest friends are Atheists or Agnostic. I do not judge them. I do not find it offensive. I never have and I never will.
I must say that I’ve read many of your blog postings regarding Atheism. Your constant complaint are that atheists should not have to deal with persecution, alienation, or ridicule. If you truly believe that, you need to stop snarkily referring to anyone who disagrees with you as militant, ignorant sheep going about their “charmed, eternal lives.” Stop. You are completely hypocritcal. If you want to be respected, respect other people.
August 6th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
“Common Sense,” disregarding the words you’ve put in my mouth, i was referring to the people who believe that only Christians can be good people when i suggested that they go about their “charmed, eternal lives,” not “anyone who disagrees” with me. Those people generally believe that they are going to live forever, and that Jesus died in order that their sins be forgiven. I don’t think pointing out how ridiculous those beliefs are is necessarily “snarky.” Read more carefully.
August 6th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
By calling other people’s beliefs “ridiculous,” you ridiculed and alienated all people who have those beliefs, not just “Christians who thinks that only Cheistians are good people”. It was also an obnoxious and dare I say “snarky” statement. Just because someone has beliefs that are different then yours, that does not make thos beliefs “ridiculous.”
Stop disrespecting other people. Just stop.
August 7th, 2009 at 4:14 pm
Ok Steph, I’ll take over… Hey Common Sense, your beliefs are ridiculous. They are so down right stupid I can’t take it. If anything can help make that point, take a look at ALLLLLL the research out there… notice the perfect relationship between intelligence and religious beliefs. The smarter you are the less likely you are to believe in a higher power.
As atheists we have earned the right to be pissed and make fun of your unintelligent sheep like views. Lets compare ‘religious people vs. atheist’ to ‘people who believed the world was flat vs. people who believed the world was round… The round people were right. Would you go back in time and tell the flat people to stick to their convictions and support their beliefs or would you tell them they were stupid.
Well I’m here ‘from the future’ *said in epic booming voice* to tell you that you are wrong. One day everyone in the world will believe in the power of ‘earthly mortal man’ and realize we should be focusing on the now to make the world a better place and not the after life cause there is no ‘better place’ in the end.
Yeah… just like their are people in your group committed to the idea that Atheists are immoral and wrong in our beliefs, I’m part of that opposing force that will openly admit that I think it is down right unintellectual to follow the herd of the fearful.
………………………and back to the original post……..
I love that photo… “You can be good without god!” I’m actually working on a poster series to raise awareness of all the amazing and (often as much as or more than believers) morally strong people that are generally considered to have all the correct answers and be role models for children that are atheists… doctors, judges, scientist, astronauts, firemen, politicians, inventors, teachers/professors, some celebrities… ect…
All to gain that first step… acceptance of our beliefs.
August 7th, 2009 at 5:22 pm
Steph, I am very PROUD of the fact that you speak your seemingly minority opinion and openly USE YOUR NAME even though you know you are going to get bashed for a lot of the things you say. Just so you know, you are not alone and other people agree with you and know that you are talking about a specific sect of people and the way they behave and you do not incorporate the WHOLE group of people under one category. Sure, some Christians really are good people and don’t judge others. However- to be a Christian and to judge others, no matter WHAT the bible says is allowed or not, is to not be a Christian. It is not YOUR personal job as a Christian to judge others.
August 7th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
A great article once again, Steph.
I concur with your reasoning. There is a somewhat cynical saying that goes “instead of raising your voice, try reinforcing your argument”. Unfortunately, many “pro-[insert cause]” groups feel that theirs is the only way it can be. Being part of a democracy means (in the ideal world) accepting that other may have different view points and it’s alright for them to express them, as you are to express yours. Whether the other person takes offense should be their problem.
Therein lies the much of this issue.
It’s too easy to say “that is offensive”. It’s a “guilty until proven innocent” argument. When certain words are used, primarily negative ones, it causes a feeling of concern which leads, in many cases, such as the one you’ve illustrated, to someone retracting their statement. It’s often easier to lie down and let the self-appointed guardians of morality to prevail than to take a stand.
There are many such polarizing areas. Good heavens, just look at the thin ice that Presidential candidates have to tread on! It’s sad, but accusing someone of being “offensive” or “discriminatory” is easier and tends to get a bigger reaction that a well thought out argument or debate. We see name calling on a daily basis. “Liberal”, “radical”, “conservative”, “bible-thumper”, “activist”…the list goes on. The worry about “offending” has overtaken practical debate and there will always be those who can manipulate a situation to get the results they want.
Putting the shoe on the other foot, one could argue that the atheist-oriented group, in this case, could have kept their opinions to themselves, but like the rest of us, they have a right to express them. It’s a shame that, because of fear of being labeled, that someone decided it was better safe than sorry.
Sorry to (again) respond with a short novel…
August 7th, 2009 at 11:33 pm
Hey Dave,
Thanks for throwing you weight around and showing me whAt a big smart guy you are. You can think I’m an idiot I’d you want. That’s fine. I want you to notice something about this conversation. I never said one thing contrary to your religious beliefs, whether I think they’re wrong or not. I never insulted anyone. You are the ones dressing ME down. You are the ones being disrespectful. And this is nothing new to me. You can complain all you want about being alienated and ridiculed, but I deal with dudes like you telling me I’m dumb all the time. Get over yourself. I don’t dislike you and those like you because you’re atheist. I dislike you because you’re conceited, self-righteous hypocrites.
And by the way, I accept your beliefs. I just think your personality sucks.
August 8th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
This has gotten out of hand. I shouldn’t have said “ridiculous,” that’s a subjective word and i apologize. I should have said “irrational,” but it seems to me that whenever an atheist calls it like she sees it, it’s seen as a judgement no matter what sort of language is used.
August 9th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
gotta love how things get out of hand when people’s religious beliefs are involved.
August 9th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
Hey Common Sense
Interesting – I don’t remember calling you an idiot. You seem to have a problem with anyone who has a different opinion…
I reread my post and looked for the “throwing my weight” around part of it and couldn’t find it – perhaps you could show me where I did. I was expressing an opinion…again, it seems as though you take offense whenever someone doesn’t agree with you and resort to name calling. I also looked for where I said I was an atheist. Couldn’t find that either. “Dumb” – nada. It’s not a word I use.
I don’t care whether you agree with my beliefs or not, and you are more than welcome to think my personality “sucks”. You’re not the first and I am sure you won’t be the last. You might want to calm down a little and get your facts straight before declaring a flame war on the world.
Thank God for the right to free speech.
August 9th, 2009 at 9:29 pm
Obviously, my opinions and presence are not wanted in this forum, so I am going to go ahead and withdraw them.
But, I do stick to my original sentiment, and I must say, Steph, as some one who has met you and hung out with you, and I have, I am just disappointed that you cannot see my point. Think about it.
August 10th, 2009 at 1:29 am
I’m sure Dave and Common are both great, wonderful people, strong in their convictions and bold enough to broadcast them to the worl– uh, internet. And, I think they both need to learn where to place a period when using quotation marks (among other helpful grammar suggestions).
http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/quotes.asp
I’m always here to help.
August 11th, 2009 at 11:28 am
Brian,
Wow. You are a piece of prejudiced work.
Love,
An atheist
August 11th, 2009 at 11:40 am
I’ve mulled this over for a while now, and here’s what bothers me: I’ve never said anything negative about Christians in general. I never called them militant sheep, i never called them stupid, i’ve never made any prejudiced remark at all (and i can’t speak for all of my commenters when i say that – i’m only talking about myself). Yes, i think Christian beliefs are rather silly, but that doesn’t say anything about how i feel about Christians. There really is a difference. Most of my friends and a lot of my family are Christians, and i love them to death. I would never say “all Christians are stupid, militant sheep.” And the same goes for members of any other religion or belief system. I think they’re misled, and that’s the extent of it, and that’s all that i believe i have ever said.
If something came across the wrong way or if i made some generalization about a certain group of people at any time, i’m sincerely sorry for it and i’d like my readers to know that it doesn’t actually represent how i feel.
August 11th, 2009 at 11:57 am
I would just like to say that I’ve made a mistake.
Dave, you did not refer to me at all. I’m sorry. I was referring to Brian Cassady. My previous remarks were directed at him, not you. It’s hard to read things on an iPod sometimes.
August 11th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Yeah, I would definitely agree that my personality has come across as quite a shitty one in my posts here. I was being a WAY bigger asshole than I would ever be in real life. Sitting behind a computer with anger raging inside really does make you fly off the handle and say nasty things. I apologize to anyone here that I offended. I sure brought what could have been a well mannered and intelligent conversation WAY DOWN. I did a great deal of bitching because of that “alienation” we are subjected to as Atheists. My approach to talking about my believes has never been one of force or really contain any negativity until recently. Lately I have been coming out of the Atheist closet to more of my family and friends and I have been receiving a great deal of push back against my views. I was raised Irish Catholic and a great deal of my family is in the group that can’t stand atheists. I suppose because I never snapped to them I lost it here on the internet.
Once again I apologize for my ridiculous and disgusting tone in my posts. Not that this matters to anyone here, I’ve spoken my bullshit words, but I truly regret my actions on this site. I became one of the people I think hinder any progress Atheists have made. Time to walk away with tail between legs.
August 11th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
That’s really admirable of you!
Just in general:
I’ll say again what I’ve said before on Steph’s blog. A lot of atheists have what I feel is a very weird need to defend themselves. In some circumstances, there’s a need for nonbelievers to stand up for rights: the ad is a perfect example.
However the general drive to defend oneself seems strange. Atheism is not a set of beliefs. It’s not something that we need to explain to people, justify, or convert others to. It is a lack of anything: there is no closet to come out of. In my experience the only only ONLY time I’ve seen hostility towards atheists is when we prance our lack of beliefs around: by prodding others into unwilling discussion, getting defensive, or trying to convert. If you avoid making yourself seem like a persecutable outsider, people won’t treat you like one.
If that’s not true, then I’m just lucky. I have never felt persecuted for my lack of belief. I HAVE had some really nice discussions with believers.
August 11th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
Wow.
I’m really impressed by both of your sentiments. It takes a lot to say something like that.
And do know that I never meant to bring the conversation down or be rude to anyone, and if I came off that way, I do apologize (especially to Dave, who I totally misfired at) for that.
I’m also sorry to hear about your touchy family situation, Brian. I personally am a liberal in a family full of ridiculously staunch conservatives, so on some lesser level, I do understand what that can be like.
August 11th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Here’s the deal though, Steph: You ARE making a generalization.
Here is one way to look at it. Reread everything you wrote as if it was written by a Christian (or a Muslim, Hindu, Jew). Replace the word “believers” with “atheists”. Replace “eternal lives” with “damned existences”. Wouldn’t you read those sentences and be upset?
And most of all, realize that a lot of your statements are belittling. “People will look at some little coincidence…”, you use words like “juvenile,” “imaginary,” and “deluding”.
Those are all generalizations about every. single. one. of the people who you know who are theists.
I’m not saying necessarily to stop making generalizations, but I am saying that you need to be very introspective because you ARE making them.
And it’s disturbing to see you making the very same statements about believers as you complain that they make about you. That is only adding fuel to the fire, not making any sort of progress forward.
August 11th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Cat,
I’ll try to clean up my language, then, but i can’t just sit idly by while (select) people fear things that they don’t need to fear, and teach their children to fear as well. I’m passionate about this topic. I do plan to split it off into a separate blog soon, though, so that anyone who doesn’t want to hear it can just not visit.
August 11th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
Cat –
I’m going to have to side with your comment on you being lucky. Several time I have been told that I was a horrible person, going to hell, and the best one “possessed by the devil” for my belief that there is no higher being.
You are correct. Most people don’t care about religious or lack of beliefs. My main group of friends and immediate family respect my opinion even if they are very religious and I never get any guff from them, but there are exceptions. It’s crazy the way some people will react to atheists. One of my really good friends in actually in school right now to be a pastor. He knows my views. I know his. And everything is fine and dandy. But I know another guy who never goes to church, never shows an ounce of his beliefs, but he wont talk to me anymore.
The majority of negative responses I have received was because the individuals were uninformed as to what it meant to be an atheist. Several times I have been lumped in with anarchists, which is WAY off base. So with that being said I think there is a need for atheists to explain themselves, but when to explain is the fine line between “throwing it in someones face” and helping the cause by educating.
Ok. I’m getting worn out and dragged down by this whole convo right now. Long story short, the real thing that needs to be accomplished is an overall increase in acceptance of other human beings and their beliefs, race, gender, sexual orientation, ect…
August 11th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
That wasn’t really my point, I guess. My main point was that you yourself aren’t clear about what you’re saying, how it comes across and why much of it contains generalizations and mainly that you are only acting as the opposite side of the same side as the believers who you believe persecute you.
August 11th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
Cat and Steph – To quickly chime in on your conversation… I think it would wrong to ignore that fact that there are people on both sides of the fence that violently support their side by hating and attacking the other. There are also people who happily sit in the middle.
Conversations like this are very difficult to keep civil.
In conversations like this the most peaceful thing to do would be to completely respect each others opinions and never make a negative comment about the other persons views but in a conversation like that little is ever accomplished. Even if you have never participated in one I’m sure you’ve seen one on TV or in a movie… “academic debates” (ie. highschool debate team) are a perfect example of how the conversation between believers and atheists should play out. Both sides should unwaveringly stick to their beliefs and explain their stance or position while respectfully listening to the other’s side. I don’t think there needs to be this false impression that you have nothing against what the other person believes, just a mutual respect and acceptance that they think you are wrong and that is ok. To say you truly don’t disagree with the opposite view would contradict and defeat the purpose of having your own opinion.
Also – To have a convo this big (in idea not length) its next to impossible to avoid making some generalizations with out having to constantly clarify yourself and hinder the progress or flow of the conversation with semantics.
I believe it is the job of both sides to calmly take the criticism and turn around with a logical rebuttal.
Steph – I think a separate blog for atheists to call home and discuss issues or ways to help the cause would be great. Let me know if you ever need any help with it.
Oops… that wasn’t a quick chiming in…
Ok… So… Uh… What are everyone’s opinions on gay rights? haha
August 11th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
Brian – I agree that it’s a difficult road to tread. But what I’m saying is that Steph has said some VERY subjective things about believers, making the same mistake that she complains about. It’s totally possible to talk about this– and to disagree– without asserting that the people on the other side are juvenile.
Had I made personal, illogical and subjective attacks in my debates, I’d have lost every one.
August 11th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
Okay – again, i never called anyone “juvenile”. I said:
I guess calling an idea or an action by a certain name is equivalent to applying that same label to the people who subscribe to said idea. I truly wasn’t aware of that. I’ll try to be less subjective in the future.
August 11th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
I’m completely belaboring the point, but I’m a person of little patience. You have used all of the words that I typed in this blog, in reference to people who believe in God.
I’m assuming you have html enabled in comments, but if it’s a mess below, then I was wrong:
“She has willfully taken the heavy and dismal delusion upon her shoulders…”
“We’re not children anymore, so why cling to such a juvenile point of view?” & “…people are missing out on some important stuff in life by deluding themselves with the idea of the importance of God.”
August 11th, 2009 at 11:17 pm
I feel like I’m jumping into the middle of a conversation I’m not really a part of, but I thought I’d toss my two cents in now that I’ve finally read through everything.
I can honestly see both sides – and quite frankly, I could not care less what my friends’ religious beliefs are (or aren’t). I actually have a rather large number of friends that, if asked, I couldn’t tell you what their affiliation was, because I’ve never asked. I obviously know yours, Steph, because you are outspoken about it, and that’s great. I have friends on the other side of this proverbial fence, and that’s great too. I think the important thing is that people have their beliefs that they are comfortable with and that they truly believe/don’t believe and if they are secure in that, then great. It really, really doesn’t matter what someone else believes, because that should have NO effect on your beliefs. People need to realize that not everyone thinks the same nor should they – we can obviously coexist with opposing beliefs, and nobody needs to tear down anyone else. (Just like how gay marriage has zero effect on the institute of straight marriage – a sign on a bus for atheism has zero effect on your belief of Christianity).
Going back through some of the other comments, I don’t think that subscribing to any particular religious point of view makes one less intelligent than others (someone earlier implied otherwise), nor do I think that NOT subscribing to a religious affiliation makes one a bad person (I think several people mentioned this). Both “Christian” and “Atheist” are becoming dirty words to the other side, and that’s sad to me.
To Steph – not to be whiny, though, but kind of echoing what Cat said… I know this is your blog and you are 100% entitled to say whatever the hell you want to (and we all know I do, on mine, ha), but the way you have phrased some of your sentiments are a little bit hurtful over on this side. I’ve been balancing somewhere between agnosticism and Christianity for the last few years, and I’m at a point where I’ve almost started to find a little of my faith again, and having God likened to Santa Claus and being a ridiculous/irrational/juvenile/whatever point of view… well… it does kind of offend me a little bit. I like to consider myself a rational, well-informed individual. It kind of sucks when you start to hear people that you respect tell you that your ideas/views are meaningless. And I know that is not at all your intent, nor should I feel you need to apologize for it, but I just wanted to let you know that Cat is right, and if it truly is your aim to not outright offend, you may want to be more careful on your choice of verbiage.
And of course, the heart of this whole post – I was absolutely appalled that they would take these signs down. They were so completely harmless and that is a severe, wretched denial of freedom of speech rights. (Honestly? I’m kind of offended by the fetus billboards, can we take those down now?) Of course at the moment of this writing, the ads are scheduled to go back up, which is great, but they should have never been taken down in the first place.
Anyway, I really didn’t mean to ramble this long… it’s nice to see that this has evolved from name-calling and insults to a calm and much more rational discussion, so kudos to everyone on that. This is definitely a touchy issue because it is so very personal, but I think when people take a step back, and stop getting defensive, just listening to what the other side has to say, can really inspire some worthwhile dialogue.
August 12th, 2009 at 8:48 am
Well, I guess I can put Common Sense to rest. Because she’s me. And I’ve decided that it’s silly to hide my identity in this manner, because I’m the only one who has.
I’ve reread what I’ve said, and while I do stick to my point and my sentiment, some things came off as harder edged than I meant them to be. Its sometimes difficult to be objective when describing an emotion.
Cat and Kelly have articulated what I feel are separate parts of my point very well. Better than I could have, really. I hope that you will really consider what they’ve said.
My real reason for charging back into the fold at this point is that I feel that it would be a mistake to confine your viewpoint to a specifically Atheist blog. I never suggested that you should suppress your viewpoint, only fine tune it. This conversation started rough around the edges, but I think it’s becoming something more. Continuing such a series of conversations here would allow you to be introspective and accept the flaws in your own arguments, point out the flaws in the arguments of others, talk to other people to help them understand you, have rational debate, etc. If you insulate yourself with only readers who agree with you, it will not allow you to do so. It will make you feel more alienated. It will not help your cause for the acceptance of your views.
Respect is key, though, and I do hope you consider that.
And to Big Bro: I cannot type on my iPod at all. I’m terrible with quotation marks. I am appalled that my previous posts had so many typos. Thank you for being kind about that.