I’ve reread what I’ve said, and while I do stick to my point and my sentiment, some things came off as harder edged than I meant them to be. Its sometimes difficult to be objective when describing an emotion.

Cat and Kelly have articulated what I feel are separate parts of my point very well. Better than I could have, really. I hope that you will really consider what they’ve said.

My real reason for charging back into the fold at this point is that I feel that it would be a mistake to confine your viewpoint to a specifically Atheist blog. I never suggested that you should suppress your viewpoint, only fine tune it. This conversation started rough around the edges, but I think it’s becoming something more. Continuing such a series of conversations here would allow you to be introspective and accept the flaws in your own arguments, point out the flaws in the arguments of others, talk to other people to help them understand you, have rational debate, etc. If you insulate yourself with only readers who agree with you, it will not allow you to do so. It will make you feel more alienated. It will not help your cause for the acceptance of your views.

Respect is key, though, and I do hope you consider that.

And to Big Bro: I cannot type on my iPod at all. I’m terrible with quotation marks. I am appalled that my previous posts had so many typos. Thank you for being kind about that.

I can honestly see both sides – and quite frankly, I could not care less what my friends’ religious beliefs are (or aren’t). I actually have a rather large number of friends that, if asked, I couldn’t tell you what their affiliation was, because I’ve never asked. I obviously know yours, Steph, because you are outspoken about it, and that’s great. I have friends on the other side of this proverbial fence, and that’s great too. I think the important thing is that people have their beliefs that they are comfortable with and that they truly believe/don’t believe and if they are secure in that, then great. It really, really doesn’t matter what someone else believes, because that should have NO effect on your beliefs. People need to realize that not everyone thinks the same nor should they – we can obviously coexist with opposing beliefs, and nobody needs to tear down anyone else. (Just like how gay marriage has zero effect on the institute of straight marriage – a sign on a bus for atheism has zero effect on your belief of Christianity).

Going back through some of the other comments, I don’t think that subscribing to any particular religious point of view makes one less intelligent than others (someone earlier implied otherwise), nor do I think that NOT subscribing to a religious affiliation makes one a bad person (I think several people mentioned this). Both “Christian” and “Atheist” are becoming dirty words to the other side, and that’s sad to me.

To Steph – not to be whiny, though, but kind of echoing what Cat said… I know this is your blog and you are 100% entitled to say whatever the hell you want to (and we all know I do, on mine, ha), but the way you have phrased some of your sentiments are a little bit hurtful over on this side. I’ve been balancing somewhere between agnosticism and Christianity for the last few years, and I’m at a point where I’ve almost started to find a little of my faith again, and having God likened to Santa Claus and being a ridiculous/irrational/juvenile/whatever point of view… well… it does kind of offend me a little bit. I like to consider myself a rational, well-informed individual. It kind of sucks when you start to hear people that you respect tell you that your ideas/views are meaningless. And I know that is not at all your intent, nor should I feel you need to apologize for it, but I just wanted to let you know that Cat is right, and if it truly is your aim to not outright offend, you may want to be more careful on your choice of verbiage.

And of course, the heart of this whole post – I was absolutely appalled that they would take these signs down. They were so completely harmless and that is a severe, wretched denial of freedom of speech rights. (Honestly? I’m kind of offended by the fetus billboards, can we take those down now?) Of course at the moment of this writing, the ads are scheduled to go back up, which is great, but they should have never been taken down in the first place.

Anyway, I really didn’t mean to ramble this long… it’s nice to see that this has evolved from name-calling and insults to a calm and much more rational discussion, so kudos to everyone on that. This is definitely a touchy issue because it is so very personal, but I think when people take a step back, and stop getting defensive, just listening to what the other side has to say, can really inspire some worthwhile dialogue.

I’m assuming you have html enabled in comments, but if it’s a mess below, then I was wrong:
“She has willfully taken the heavy and dismal delusion upon her shoulders…”
“We’re not children anymore, so why cling to such a juvenile point of view?” & “…people are missing out on some important stuff in life by deluding themselves with the idea of the importance of God.”

We can be good people and stop fearing death and enjoy life to the fullest and connect deeply with one another without attributing everything to some imaginary entity watching over us like Santa Claus. We’re not children anymore, so why cling to such a juvenile point of view?

I guess calling an idea or an action by a certain name is equivalent to applying that same label to the people who subscribe to said idea. I truly wasn’t aware of that. I’ll try to be less subjective in the future.

Had I made personal, illogical and subjective attacks in my debates, I’d have lost every one.

Conversations like this are very difficult to keep civil.

In conversations like this the most peaceful thing to do would be to completely respect each others opinions and never make a negative comment about the other persons views but in a conversation like that little is ever accomplished. Even if you have never participated in one I’m sure you’ve seen one on TV or in a movie… “academic debates” (ie. highschool debate team) are a perfect example of how the conversation between believers and atheists should play out. Both sides should unwaveringly stick to their beliefs and explain their stance or position while respectfully listening to the other’s side. I don’t think there needs to be this false impression that you have nothing against what the other person believes, just a mutual respect and acceptance that they think you are wrong and that is ok. To say you truly don’t disagree with the opposite view would contradict and defeat the purpose of having your own opinion.

Also – To have a convo this big (in idea not length) its next to impossible to avoid making some generalizations with out having to constantly clarify yourself and hinder the progress or flow of the conversation with semantics.

I believe it is the job of both sides to calmly take the criticism and turn around with a logical rebuttal.

Steph – I think a separate blog for atheists to call home and discuss issues or ways to help the cause would be great. Let me know if you ever need any help with it.

Oops… that wasn’t a quick chiming in…

Ok… So… Uh… What are everyone’s opinions on gay rights? haha

You are correct. Most people don’t care about religious or lack of beliefs. My main group of friends and immediate family respect my opinion even if they are very religious and I never get any guff from them, but there are exceptions. It’s crazy the way some people will react to atheists. One of my really good friends in actually in school right now to be a pastor. He knows my views. I know his. And everything is fine and dandy. But I know another guy who never goes to church, never shows an ounce of his beliefs, but he wont talk to me anymore.

The majority of negative responses I have received was because the individuals were uninformed as to what it meant to be an atheist. Several times I have been lumped in with anarchists, which is WAY off base. So with that being said I think there is a need for atheists to explain themselves, but when to explain is the fine line between “throwing it in someones face” and helping the cause by educating.

Ok. I’m getting worn out and dragged down by this whole convo right now. Long story short, the real thing that needs to be accomplished is an overall increase in acceptance of other human beings and their beliefs, race, gender, sexual orientation, ect…

I’ll try to clean up my language, then, but i can’t just sit idly by while (select) people fear things that they don’t need to fear, and teach their children to fear as well. I’m passionate about this topic. I do plan to split it off into a separate blog soon, though, so that anyone who doesn’t want to hear it can just not visit.

Here is one way to look at it. Reread everything you wrote as if it was written by a Christian (or a Muslim, Hindu, Jew). Replace the word “believers” with “atheists”. Replace “eternal lives” with “damned existences”. Wouldn’t you read those sentences and be upset?
And most of all, realize that a lot of your statements are belittling. “People will look at some little coincidence…”, you use words like “juvenile,” “imaginary,” and “deluding”.

Those are all generalizations about every. single. one. of the people who you know who are theists.

I’m not saying necessarily to stop making generalizations, but I am saying that you need to be very introspective because you ARE making them.

And it’s disturbing to see you making the very same statements about believers as you complain that they make about you. That is only adding fuel to the fire, not making any sort of progress forward.

I’m really impressed by both of your sentiments. It takes a lot to say something like that.

And do know that I never meant to bring the conversation down or be rude to anyone, and if I came off that way, I do apologize (especially to Dave, who I totally misfired at) for that.

I’m also sorry to hear about your touchy family situation, Brian. I personally am a liberal in a family full of ridiculously staunch conservatives, so on some lesser level, I do understand what that can be like.

Just in general:
I’ll say again what I’ve said before on Steph’s blog. A lot of atheists have what I feel is a very weird need to defend themselves. In some circumstances, there’s a need for nonbelievers to stand up for rights: the ad is a perfect example.

However the general drive to defend oneself seems strange. Atheism is not a set of beliefs. It’s not something that we need to explain to people, justify, or convert others to. It is a lack of anything: there is no closet to come out of. In my experience the only only ONLY time I’ve seen hostility towards atheists is when we prance our lack of beliefs around: by prodding others into unwilling discussion, getting defensive, or trying to convert. If you avoid making yourself seem like a persecutable outsider, people won’t treat you like one.

If that’s not true, then I’m just lucky. I have never felt persecuted for my lack of belief. I HAVE had some really nice discussions with believers.

Once again I apologize for my ridiculous and disgusting tone in my posts. Not that this matters to anyone here, I’ve spoken my bullshit words, but I truly regret my actions on this site. I became one of the people I think hinder any progress Atheists have made. Time to walk away with tail between legs.

Dave, you did not refer to me at all. I’m sorry. I was referring to Brian Cassady. My previous remarks were directed at him, not you. It’s hard to read things on an iPod sometimes.

If something came across the wrong way or if i made some generalization about a certain group of people at any time, i’m sincerely sorry for it and i’d like my readers to know that it doesn’t actually represent how i feel.

Love,
An atheist

http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/quotes.asp

I’m always here to help.

But, I do stick to my original sentiment, and I must say, Steph, as some one who has met you and hung out with you, and I have, I am just disappointed that you cannot see my point. Think about it.

Interesting – I don’t remember calling you an idiot. You seem to have a problem with anyone who has a different opinion…

I reread my post and looked for the “throwing my weight” around part of it and couldn’t find it – perhaps you could show me where I did. I was expressing an opinion…again, it seems as though you take offense whenever someone doesn’t agree with you and resort to name calling. I also looked for where I said I was an atheist. Couldn’t find that either. “Dumb” – nada. It’s not a word I use.

I don’t care whether you agree with my beliefs or not, and you are more than welcome to think my personality “sucks”. You’re not the first and I am sure you won’t be the last. You might want to calm down a little and get your facts straight before declaring a flame war on the world.

Thank God for the right to free speech.